Infinite Frustration

[michael3130]

Jacek,


You're right, it's difficult to break habits and switching between SW and ProE I very often do things like press esc when using ProE or press the middle mouse button when using SW. Minor points but it makes you have to think a bit more when using each program. The more I use the 2 simultaneously though, the easier it becomes. I generally use ProE in mydaytime job and then put on my SW cap when I'm doing private work from home. Now it's just like driving 2 different cars on a regular basis,when you jump into the drivers seat each time you have to adjust your actions to find the bite point and the steering feels differentbut soon enough the drivings smooth again though sometimes maybe a bit eratic.


Michael

 

[Jacoolo]

maybe you`re right Micheal, it is just hard to imagine to wotk easly on two app simultaneously. It just about -"here I use two clicks and there I have to use 4 clicks, it sucks". No it does not suck at all. It is just different.

I try to bite Catia V5 now, and it is so not "intuitive". But say it truely - not intuitive in Pro\E world. Where is window to collect references in sketcher, why RMB does not work, why I am not alerted of missing dims by grey dims. It sucks... After a day or two, well it could have sense. It is just different.

I assume the same is with SW. It takes all best from other app. Maybe from Pro\E the most. It looks the same, it works like Pro\e. I can imagine it makes PTC managers sleepless.

 

[Mindripper]

Yeah muadib3d, SW gives the PTC folks fits. It's a lot like Pro/E, except it's easier to learn and use. And it's a true Windows-based application: you even embed MS Word and Exceldocuments insde the files as part of some of the core functionality.


After all, it was started by a bunch of former Pro/E people in the early 1990s. PTC had decided that Windows was worthless, and saw no future for Pro/E in that operating system: the bigwigs decided thatUnix (and PTC) would forever dominate the CAD marketplace. So some of their best people pulled up stakes and founded SW: the goal was an exclusively Windows-based application that was user-friendly and based on an existing non-proprietary kernel (Parasolid), with sales and support through VARs. They have been so successful that PTC has been trying hard to mimic their interface for for about seven years now.There are now more than 500,000 seats of SW: more than Pro/E. I believe PTC will finallyabandon Unix in the next couple of years.

 

[design-engine]

Ifind myselfflipping between Maya Alias Pro/E and .... solidoworks. It only takes a few minutes and Im fine. Would be cool if we could fully costomize the menu like in Alias Studio. Hell, you can even create marker menus. So cool.
Edited by: design-engine

 

[Jacoolo]

the history of SW sounds really intresting. Just like in film. Maybe I will write down an article about that. The same as I did for games - id games, Prey, DNF, Unreal for Polish games magazine.

It would be great if this topic - or new one - focuses on new func included in SW, like dim expert, feat. expert. Does anybody use it? How it works? Is this really worth to handle with this?

I check last rev of SW and Inventor. Both of this app give user some technical enhancment like menu to generate gears or bearings. In Pro\e all of this is done with external plugins made - i suppose - in Pro\Toolkit. But this has to be paid extra. Is it really profit to follow this way for Pro\e?

 

[dgs]

There are now more than 500,000 seats of SW: more than Pro/E.

Where did you hear that? I'm not calling you a liar, just curious of the source. Based on what I know of Pro|E's numbers (from the PTC|User conference), that seems high.


At the PTC|User conference this year, PTC gave out these stats (for comparison):
<UL>
<LI>50,000 customers</LI>
<LI>800,000 users (that's all products, MathCAD, IsoDraw, Windchill, Pro|E, etc.)</LI>
<LI>Pro|E is growing at 15% per year, the overall CAD market at 5%.</LI>[/list]


They didn't give the number of Pro|E seats, but they did mention that their top 20 customers have over 2,000 seats (not necessarily all Pro|E). That's 40,000 seats minimum in those 20 customers alone. Assuming the remainder have single digit seats (not likely) and you're around 100,000 seats of PTC products. Even if that's off by half, you're still at only 200,000 seats, and that's all PTC products, not just Pro|E.


Maybe SW has more seats, but you can see why the 500,000 number seems a little high to me.

 

[michael3130]

Doug,


Mindripper may be right. I know that here (Northern Ireland), SolidWorks resellers approached the education board with amazing deals on educational lisenses that they just couldn't refuse, so now most secondary education places use SW. With so many students then coming out of education with a knowledge base of SW, a lot of industry then also sign up to SW. A very good move by SW. Northern Ireland is a small place, now with a lot of SW lisenses, so if SW resellers have used this strategy in other countries I wouldn't be at all surprised if the figure is that high.


Michael

 

[Mindripper]

I think my numbers came from either a local VAR or SW itself about a year ago, but I'm not sure. They send me e-mails all the time, and I tend to read them. Surely some organization has some honest numbers on this stuff, but I do not know who. The key number is the CAD user count, not the number using other products. Floating licenses also tend to muddy the waters on this stuff.


SW took a page from Autodesk's book pretty much from their inception: put their product in the hands of students for a very low price, and this will lead to license sales. I think PTC decided to pursue this path as well in recent years, but I do not know how it has worked out for them.


The epic saga of of the history of CAD would be a good tale to compile. Incidentally, I seem to recall hearing that a bunch of SW folks jumped ship to form Alibre ..... I worked in the pressure sensor industry for a while, and some guy actually made up a 'genealogy map' of the evolution of the industry. It was pretty entertaining. Talk about inbreeding!

 

[dgs]

PTC has a program now where if a school district(high schools and even elementary schools) sends one teacher to training, they'll give the school 300 licenses for free.

 

[dougr]

300 ????

 

[dgs]

Yep. Check it out here. Here's a quote:
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">


Upon receipt of the names of the teachers eligible for certification by PTC, the teachers are sent a license agreement that allows them to use the software - it also constitutes certification. Once teachers are certified by PTC they may install the software on up to 300 computers, including students' home computers.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Teacher training is only $100-$200 too. I think that they are doing something similar with Windchill.

 

[Erich with an H]

Its official...I'm in lock-up. I just can't look at the Pro/E screen anymore. I can't get anything to function easily. Its beena long week trying to get changes done on others models. Now I just can't take another minute of looking at this silly model, trying to replace parts, getting half way through, screwing up, and having to start over.


I just physically am sick from the frustration this software has caused me. I know, "chin up, you'll catch on eventually." Well I want to understand this beast NOW! I've run out of ideas andI can rarely find what I need in the "help" menu.


Honestly, how long does this progam take to unravel? When do you begin to feel confident using it. Where can I get some training (or a good book). I'm tired of shaking my head, I'm tired of randomly clicking my mouse, and my wife is tired of my foul mood when I get home. I'm really rethinking this engineering thing.

 

[dgs]

10 years ago when I started, there was a good how-to book called 'Inside Pro|E". Don't know if it's still being updated or not, but I went through it prior to training and didn't really get much out of training as a result.


Another suggestion would be to post specific questions here on what you're dealing with at the moment and we'll be glad to help out.

 

[Erich with an H]

You got training? Wow you're in a different place than me. I got a computer and was told do this, do that. No training on how to actually operate.


No offense but the response time for specific questions on this board isn't great. I already look like I'm screwing off enough, waiting around isn't gointo help much. Besides, I think part of the my problem is that I'm not really sure what I'm trying to do, or what exactly I'm dealing with.

 

[wsylvester]

erich... is there a certain file that is screwing things up... I get the drift that there is one that is causing major headache.. or am I wrong


a bad assembly???


sorry I haven't been followingthread too much

 

[dgs]

Not sure this is kosher, but try signing up at ptcuser.org for their forums. You have to be a member to sue them, but membership is free. Also, their 'forum' is better used as an email list and the response time is usually pretty good. You email the questions and the answers come back via email.


Also, emailing questions in looks less suspicious than visiting a web forum every day.

 

[wsylvester]

better still .. join up with ptcuser.org


then go to group and user profiles ... do a search for your area.. heck state and maybe get some local input.. doesn't look like there is a wa. pug


you have201 user in wa.. you can export that to excel... maybe find someone to take you under their wing a bit ...


just a idea

 

[Jacoolo]

erich do not give up man!

I`m gonna hold my thumbs, till I read a thread written by you - "Guys, it was not really a so pain in..., it just took more time, than I was first thinking."

Not give up, because your fall, will be fall of us all. How it would be look then - guys from best forum of the world could not help their team mate. I can not let for it.

I do not want to intruduce with advises, I am sure you are already sick of : Do this, do that, it must work.

But..., give the Pro\E last chance. Take a real device - Tv tuner, vacum cleaner, anything. Try to make it in Pro\E. No matter of exact dims, do not bother with this. Try to do that.

If you then have still a problem, call me by skype, I can provide you with some smart tricks in sketcher, part modeling, etc.

and now -
go, go ,go!

 

[Mindripper]

We are all assuming you have had formal classroom training. It's quite essential with this software: I know of very few people who have even attempted to learn it without classroom instruction. The only one I know who had any success at this had years of SW use under his belt, but was still quite frustrated for several months.


This isn't user-friendly software, where a reasonalbly intelligent technically-oriented person with a knowledge of drafting and 2D CAD could easily just pick up a good text and be up to speed in a few weeks, without beating their head against the wall (i.e., 'Inside SolidWorks' and SW). I know quite a few people who have done this with SW: some were electrical engineers with little mechanical background, but could read a drawing.


We all know that the Help function in Pro/E is almost worthless. PTC phone support is also a reasonably good bet, if you can get through. The on-line tutorials from PTC Universityare also helpful, especially if you are an experienced CAD user. Having an experienced (and patient) Pro/E user within shouting distance is the best support of all.


Finally, there are quite a few formerSW users who tried to switch to Pro/E and were simply unable to adapt. Fortunately for them, there are lots of jobs out there for SW users - far more than for Pro/E users in my neck of the woods - and they went back to SW at a new employer. This seems to be a widely accepted and perfectly legitimate explanantion for changing jobs: "I just couldn't stand Pro/E". You wouldn't be the first, and absolutely positively will not be the last. It is also one of the leading reasons for many companies in this area abandoning Pro/E for SW: not just training,higher productivity andease of use with SW, but more and more engineers are insistent on using SW, and avoiding Pro/E.

 

[dgs]

This isn't user-friendly software, where a reasonalbly intelligent technically-oriented person with a knowledge of drafting and 2D CAD could easily just pick up a good text and be up to speed in a few weeks, without beating their head against the wall (i.e., 'Inside SolidWorks' and SW). I know quite a few people who have done this with SW: some were electrical engineers with little mechanical background, but could read a drawing.

Well, that's exactly what I did, 10 years ago (version 16). I had a book (Inside Pro|E) and within a few weeks I was up to speed. My employer had scheduled me for training, but by the time I went I had already learned 90% of what I got from the basic training class. Inside Pro|E is still available, for WF, on Amazon. (You can even get the old 1997version I used, if you want.) There are several other Pro|E books available as well which may be very good.

It is also one of the leading reasons for many companies in this area abandoning Pro/E for SW: not just training,higher productivity andease of use with SW, but more and more engineers are insistent on using SW, and avoiding Pro/E.

That's a pretty broad, blanket statement to make without some facts to back it up. If it's your opinion or experience, that's really a different story. I'm certainly no fan of the Pro|E interface and layout (I'm a pretty vocal critic of it), but my experience doesn't show a mass exodus to SW. I certainly don't assume to have the pulse of the broad CAD marketplace, however.


As I posted earlier, Pro|E continues to gain market faster than the over all CAD market, per the statistics from PTC. That's contrary to the idea of "more and more" engineers avoiding Pro|E.