Engineer or draftsman? who does detailing

[willyt]

Many comments are right on the money. All of these comments must be looked at as a group of issues that must be managed. Most organizations will not have everything specifically identified. There is always room for improvement and we are constantly in a learning mode.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
The structure of the staff is one of the controlling elements. In some environments, the drafter is a member of the team. They attend meetings to understand the intent of the design, applicable specs and standards, and the project schedule. In other environments, the drafter is left out, relied on to simply perform tasks based on input for that task. In either case, the drafter must be provided with information in areas of concern.
Regarding the concern over the drafter changing the model, a data management (e.g., Intralink) is a tool for maintaining the integrity of the design. However, even with this type of system there are opportunities for errors to be made. The drafter must trusted as being responsible for not altering features that could cause problems with the fabrication, finish, assembly, etc., of the products. It would be very inefficient to require a complete check of an assembly every time a part is modified. Trust in fellow employees is critical for confidence in the team reaching its goals.
The position of drafter is disappearing in many organizations. The ease of creating drawings through software such as Wildfire is one of its selling points. This allows less effort for the designer to create the drawings than it used to. In some cases, I feel that there is a bit of a gap in this structure. It appears to me that the engineer/designer often does not have practical knowledge of limitations in their design, brought about by tooling capabilities, ease of assembly, and company standards for presenting this information. It

 

[rschuite]

I want to work with you.. very thoughtful and well put. I am fortunate that although I have no engineering degree I have become a trusted designer/drafter and work very closely with an Engineer who relies on me for input in design. He has only been with the company for about a year and I have been here since 1978. My product knowledge is an invaluable resource and he appreciates that. I trust that he will point out manufacturing limitations andtogether we make a great team

 

[dr_gallup]

I have seen some total Junk from people that don't have the time or experience with Pro E to USE IT CORRECTLY. Very true and that person could be an engineer or a draftsman.


Plus because I am doing the modeling my detailing is twice as fast because I have made the necessary sections, added the tolerances etc. This is exactly why I do my own detailing. How do you know what the correct tolerances are? That is fundamental to my designs, I frequently have sub micron tolerances.



I have seen many many Engineers that say I like to do my own modeling... then the detailer spends an hour or more fixing the model so that the shown dims are correct, or so instances can be made withoug failing. Again, just a matter of experience, if the engineer did the drafting then he would stop making those mistakes & creating rework.



I just worked on an imported model from a design house that had 115 features It failed as soon as I tried to add any instances...... any change and KABOOM.... I remodeled it with 22 features and all the instance regen flawlessly... I have never received a good model imported model, that is hardly relevant.




The Key word here is Ecperience... and theperson sitting in front of the tube 40 hours a week is the person that is going to be most efficient.



I have been doing this since 1992 full time I started 4 years before you. Don't tell me about experience.

If we ever had a draftsperson with your capabilities I would be over joyed but we rarely find one with any Pro/E experience let alone someone who has truly mastered it. And they never stick around after I whip them into shape. In this office, all the engineers & draftsmen come to me with the "How do I..." questions.

 

[rschuite]

I actually started in 1978.... 1992is when I started working with Pro E specifically....so I would say that gives me 10 years on you....the experience I am speaking of is the amount of time working SPECIFICALLY WITH PRO E. I agree that there are Engineers that are good with Pro... And it really depends on the speed with which designs need to turn around and be produced. The product I work with can frequently go from request to manufacture in a matter of days (sometimes the same day). I do all specials and custom product for an office furniture manufacturer (specializing insheet metal)And I can assure you we don't work with sub micron tolerances....But if you had a drafter detailer that you could trust it shouldn't be to hard to relay tolerance information to that person.


Now that you mention it... I too have never received a good imported model. so your right... moot point....


It sounds as if you have spent many many hours at the tube.


see if any of this below sound familiar


I have seen people spend a whole day re-working an assembly because they don't know how to use interchange assemblies. or putting screw upon screw in assmblies individually because they don't know about repeat.... spendingto muchtime making new partsvery similar to existing because they don't know how to use duplicate objects in Intralink...


I can only speak from my experience and in our industry the engineers work very hard with theresponsabilities they have, and couldn't handle those if they had to do modeling and detailing plus everthingelse... ie: assemblies, data management etc.


I am not trying to say that ENGINEERSaren't capable...just that if I were paying the people I wouldn't want to pay engineer wages to someone sitting in front of the tube 40+hours a week. When I could pay someone with a technical diploma or training 2/3 or even 1/2 thewages to handle the drafting and detailing duties.


I think you and I would make a great team... I guarantee you my models would be accurate and robust... and you would learn to rely on my skills.. there are allot of us out there that don't have the Engineering degree but have the smarts...

 

[dr_gallup]

....the experience I am speaking of is the amount of time working SPECIFICALLY WITH PRO E.

That's what I'm talking about too. I saw a RELEASE 1 Pro/E demo & said "That's the way a CAD tool should work". By the time I got the software it was release 2. I already had experience with AutoMAD, CADDS4X, etc.

 

[nawaz]

Hi all,


Pro/E piont of view...if the same person doing the modeling and detailing it would be better and faster. This may sound being possesive about one's design...but its the way...


Even we have drafters...but now they have grown to such a level that they understand the essence of the project/product and deliver the right stuff.


As far as good communication and team spirit is there this Designer / Drafter differences doesn't matter.


In India, though you posses Masters or BS ....you have to work on drawings (Design and detail) if your designation is designer or engineer. by the time they grow to managerial position they are well versed with all pros n cons of the design department. i think this is good practice...


what do you guys say....seriously?

 

[mechanical01]

I agree with nawaz point of view. This is the same way we work in Pakistan (mostly).

 

[rschuite]

I agree also. There will always be both engineers and designer/drafters that don't do quality work... as my father always told me..... someone graduated last in their class..... and someone graduated first... so if the "Engineers" can find someone they trust to put their ideas to models....drawings....assemblies...


Hey i forgot to mention that our engineers always check over the work... and I think anyone would admit it's good to have a second set of eyes look at a design and it's documentation.

 

[design-engine]

The trend at a major phone manufacture in the early 90's was to let the engineers do their own drafting. That was not always the case tho because their modeling skills were short since they pushed so much paper.With the minimal control drawings the only real dimensions beyond over all dims are the snap fit dimensions anyway.

Some of the large agriculture or heavy equipment companies will always have fully detailed drawings req. the draftsman tho.They love their drawings.
Edited by: design-engine

 

[dougr]

Speaking as an Engineer my models are typically set up to do cartooning, design studies, trade studies, FEA etc, etc


So I don't necessarily set up models for detailing.


Good/bad models depend on your perspective and intent in life.


As for who actually details, this should be left to the immediate needs and available resources of the organization.


You guys exhibit very narrow minds, hard to believe I know, but models are useful for more than just detailing...

 

[rschuite]

Narrow minds... I don't think the tooling company I send models to would appreciate it if I just said.... well this is close.... and I totally agree models are useful for many things.... conceptualization, envelope info...relaying ideas quickly.


we use our models for weights, senddata directly to lasers and die makers....mold makers, use them to make prototype plastic parts on 3d printers... They had better be accurate.


If an someone wants to build a model for any of the former.... have at it. but if you made a model and sent it to me for detailing and it was crap... you'd be getting it back.


we actually use block type hinge models for positioning etc... the actual models being larger and requiring more regen time...so I agree simple for the purpose.


But the hinge manufacturer needs accuracy, or uh oh.... why doesn't this door open correctly or far enough........


If I didn't make robust models with the ability to be family tabled and regen flawlessly I would consider myself a hack!


If I owned a company I would rather have narrow.... accurate minds making the models I am going to be using to produce my product than a broadminded "this is good enough approach"


so I am proud to say when it comes to my JOB for the COMPANY I WORK FOR...


I AM GOING TO REMAIN NARROW MINDED AND BUILD THE BEST MOST ACCURATE MODELS I CAN.

 

[design-engine]

Models... not drawings

 

[rschuite]

exactly... the models are what is MOST important... sometimes no drawings are involved... especially with todays technology. I send flat patterns to the laser and voila! no drawing. We have presses that operate off the models... no drawings.


The model better be accurate.


again for concept or envelope basic will do but... pro is so accurate and easy why not just start with EXACTLY what you need.

 

[rudresh.hm]

hi Yasir,


i would like to answer your questionspoint to point


1. Should he be doing detail drawing himself?


both have advantages in their own ways.


it is better if you(engineer) can do the detailing yourself:


(a) you will know what is the preffered dimesioning pattern, so you creat the model( sketch) in an appropriate way.


(b) some times to specify the tolerances we need the tolerancing pattern adopted on the parts which will be assembled on to it/ thecomponent's next levelassembly so that you can copy the same tolerancing here also.


(c) tolerancing, you cant leave to the drafter, because you only know how much close tolerance is actually required to you! You will have to meet your cost target!!!


if a drafter does the detailing:


(a) he may have to redefine dimensioning pattern to use show/erase. so loss oftime (repeated effort)


(b) for tolerancing drafter has to know the entire system/assembly before starting them he can do justice.


(c) some times experienced drafters will be in a position to guide fresh designers in this regard. use of drafters expertise ( two way communication)


but the looks a drafer gives to his drawing, an engineer cant do that.


______________________________________________


2. Should the task of detailing be shifted to draftsmen? if so what method should be adopted to avoid em changing the actual model by mistake. They do require certain datum feature in detailing which might not be present/reqd in model.
What approach should be adopted to avoid Check In issues and at the same time, engineer can work on some other thing rather than just spending time on detailing, specially if the load work is too much. I hope u wd get my point.



before check indesigner can see the status and if it is modified ask the drafter if he has added any features(datums) or have changed any dim display in the dimension. if hehas not changed anything intentionally update(in intralink)the model before checkin.to ensure only new features added to the model and old features remain unchanged, we can lock the last feature before giving/starting for detailing.


design can have checkin rights to the folder if the drafer in a new guy.


if the model shows modified status and would like to update. take a pic of thedrawing before doing this. them use compare to check if something got modifiedon the drawing. see the changes are desired/intended or not and take your decision.


i think I was clear in explaining


thanks


-Rudresh

 

[rudresh.hm]

exactly... the models are what is MOST important... sometimes no drawings are involved... especially with todays technology. I send flat patterns to the laser and voila! no drawing. We have presses that operate off the models... no drawings.


The model better be accurate.


again for concept or envelope basic will do but... pro is so accurate and easy why not just start with EXACTLY what you need.

hi rschuite,


we have technollogy, but it is not cheap!!!! we have to pay huge sum for that.


we cant keep using NC for things like brackets andother simple parts generally used as a part not used in assembly, they seldom need to be produced accurate. we do really need tolerancing, if we talk about cost.


small suppliers can produce just what we really need at lower prices, they do not have NC machines.


also for our quality guys to accept the supplied parts we need our drawing as a criteria for acceptance.


thanks


-Rudresh

 

[davidinindy]

Well, I'm not a degreed engineer, but I do designs, from concept to completion. This includes modeling, detailing, and sending out to vendors and our own machine shop.


I do everything from welded assemblies, to high tolerancemachined parts.


My boss is a degreed engineer, and he coordinates with sales, and production, but leaves a lot up to me. I choose materials, appropriate tolerances, manufacturing methods, etc.


I have 15 years experience designing in CAD and working with machine and fabrication shops. He doesn't even have any CAD software on his computer. I'm also more familiar with machining methods, anddrafting standards than he is.


With Pro-E (and many CAD systems for that matter) there really shouldn't be much time involved in making prints. With the cost cutting, and cut-backs in the world today, I think thedays of the drafter may be coming to an end.


I put all the proper information in my models, and when it comes time ot generate prints, it is very quick to do. It would take lme onger to pass it to someone else, and explain to them what needs done.


Just my 2 cents... or maybe a little more.

 

[machid]

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