Engineer or draftsman? who does detailing

[yasir-z]

Hi folks!!

Hope every one around is enjoying life. I had this question in my mind for a long time and wanted to get opinions on it. In our company, we are using proe,intralink and autocad too. Previously, our draftsmen were trained in Autocad so we had to give em dwg's for detailing after finalizing the design and model. This practise is certainly not good and one can not keep the connectivity with the model and so on...... Then we gradulaly tried to train em to pro-e and shift em to proe's drawing module.

My point is that, if a designer/engineer models and designs a part, what is the right approach keeping in view the intralink issues

1. Should he be doing detail drawing himself?
2. Should the task of detailing be shifted to draftsmen? if so what method should be adopted to avoid em changing the actual model by mistake. They do require certain datum feature in detailing which might not be present/reqd in model.

What approach should be adopted to avoid Check In issues and at the same time, engineer can work on some other thing rather than just spending time on detailing, specially if the load work is too much. I hope u wd get my point.

Thanx

 

[phoxeoy]

It amazes me when people with higher paying positions look down and talk about fellow workers as if they could not tie there own shoes without directions.

 

[dooghspuno]

If you can afford to pay Engineers to do your drafting that's great but our view is that theEngineer's time is to valuableto be doing drawings, that's why you have draftsman. We always stress to ourEngineers to use the Draftsman, that's why they're here!

 

[etron]

Yasir-z: This is my opinion since you did ask.


1. Should he be doing detail drawing himself? If time allows him to do so then might as well complete everything; however there are many times when the engineer or designer does not have the time to detail out the drawing.



2. Should the task of detailing be shifted to draftsmen? if so what method should be adopted to avoid em changing the actual model by mistake. They do require certain datum feature in detailing which might not be present/reqd in model. I also believe that you got to educate your draftsmen on the finer elements of pro-e if they don't already know it so that everything remains intact. Know one knows it all and therefore we have to contually train ourselves and help others learn as well. This forum is great for a lot of that.

What approach should be adopted to avoid Check In issues and at the same time, engineer can work on some other thing rather than just spending time on detailing, specially if the load work is too much. I hope u wd get my point. The check in process is something that your department needs to work out and as far as the work load issue. We continually battle that one ourselves and just do what we can in a given day.


Good luck
Edited by: etron

 

[verge]

It seems the point you're making is that the engineer has an intimate knowledge of the parts being designed, and knows what he/she wants to see on the drawings. The question isn't whether or not the drafters know how to do their job, but how much time should be spent communicating the information to the drafter as compared to the time it would take the engineer to simply detail the drawing. Also, there's the issue of the engineer's involvement with the process. Communicating the design is important, but soare analysis, process, material flow, etc.


Where I work, the engineers usually detail all drawings for a particular job, then when corrections are made during the process, the corrections are added by a drafter. We are thinking of hiring another drafter or two, though, and possibly shifting the engineers' emphasis a bit towards more of a "project management" type role.


I don't thinkyasir-z is trying to insult anyone, just trying to make things run smoothly.

 

[vlad1979]

I agree with "the engineer has an intimate knowledge of the parts being designed, and knows what he/she wants to see on the drawings.


For simple parts there is no problem, the drafter can make the drawings easily.


But for more complicated parts that require dimension tolerances, geometric tolerances and so on, the designer should put at least those dimensions, and tolerances that he/she has in mind for the part. Because the drafter doesn't always check the part to see how it fits in the assembly. He/she isdoing the drawing and that's it (it's his/her job description, drafter).


And for the intralink status, I work with different release levels: from proposal, work in progres,to be detailed, to be checked, to be released and released. So every time someone finishes work on the part he/she changes the release level. This way no one works at the same time on the part. (And this is why comunication has been invented and email, don't be afraid to ask

).

 

[trillicomm]

I do both so I know both sides' of the story.


For non-critical features/dimensions:
Drafters mostly detail to suit manufacturing capabilities in which designers tend to have out-of-date knowledge.

For critical features/dimensions:
Designer must detail the critical dimensions and leave the others to drafters.

On the drawing: add a parameter to show the version of the model(s), e.g. A.1

&model_name &PTC_WM_VERSION

But having a second set of eyes always helps detect unforseen mistakes.

 

[roto]

A perspective shift is appropriate. The issue here is the engineers think they can do the draftsman's job as good or better than the draftman. This is usually not the case. After working with your drafters, you will most likely find out that they are very competantin their profession and can complete the tasks better and faster than the engineers.


The engineers need to relay information regarding critical features and tolerance issues. Here, we send a rough (sometimes by hand) outine of what we need on the drawing with the drawing request.Anyunforseen drawing isues are taking care of during the approval process.


Simple.

 

[verge]

I'm with roto on this. Drafting takes a lot of training, especially when you start getting into weld symbols, GD&T and the like. Why not have someone specifically skilled in these areas deal with this for you? Just make sure the important stuff is complete and correct, and that there are no communication issues with the shop floor, and keep on keeping on. I've seen a lot of good engineers turned into mid-level drafters - that's a shame.


You'll notice that I use the term 'drafters' instead of 'draftsmen'. There are women who perform this job, too, guys!

 

[AHA-D]

Most of my life I have been in the situation where the designer makes the drawing. It's the most logical. The designer knows what the product is about and how it needs to fit into the outside world. From that knowledge a drawing can be made to show and explain just that. Isn't that what the drawing is all about ? Communicating ?


Separating the two is not necessarily an advantage. One could argue that a less paid person does the less demanding work but if you add the time both people are communicating about the job (that's 2 wages added ! ) plus the time to do more changes and checks then I doubt that there is that much gained.


Kinda reminds me of the situation when I started to work and we had a typist to do document work. By the time I had hand written the text I could have typed it and be spared of having to go through the text again to check and correct what was misread/misunderstood.


Alex

 

[roto]

OK. So just like most problems, there is more than one correct solution and thereare too many variables to make a blanket statement of what's the best option for all situations.


That being said..


In reply to AHA-D: While SOME of the Project Engineers here have a good understanding of GD&T, and all are experts in their particular area; NONE have a solid grasp of CMM capability and for that reason cannot make a drawing that is worth the paper it'splotted on (or bytes it consumes.) They have no idea what a datum target is for, why referance demensions are needed, etc.


But that's OK. In fact, it works out better. No one can know everything and when someone tries to do it all, mistakes are made.


I suppose it boils down to the quality of individual you employ. We have all experts and no one could do the other's job better than the other.


Oh, and each is paid as such. Some draftspersons are paid as much as some engineers... Pay is based on knowlege and expertise, not title.

 

[yasir-z]

I appreciate the response from u people. First of all let me clear one
thing. I did not ever wanted to offend any one by saying that Engineers are highly paid and they dont have regard for their fellow workers. (Phoxeoy, i did not mean what u have said)

What i meant to say that we have a certain system in our company in which Engineers and draftsmen have their roles and tasks defined. We deeply respect each other and always promote a friendly culture. in our case, Draftsmen are hired to do detailing. The problem we are facing, is how to KEEP CONTROL of the designer on a part or assembly, so that it might not be changed by mistake. Ofcourse the individual who has designed the part knows all the details of it and if any other person, whether engineer or draftsman, makes a detailed drawing of that, there will be a chance of error.

I just wanted to know the practises u guys adopt in ur companies to handle this issue. Remember, we want to keep the part and drawing relation in intralink, and want to have a fool proof method. (part or assembly remains read only for the dratfsman, yet they can create and modify certain datum features required only for detailing).

 

[dougr]

In my current job (I'm an Engineer) we use UG.


I do not normally do drafting (ie create drawings) and have the best Designers and Detailers to do this for me - the only time I would prepare a drawing is if time permits which is almost never.


I also have the option of "outsourcing" but with time differences, lack of "co-location"etc this is not effective during NPD.


From time-to-time I do some modeling but it's normally as part of working out the Engineering - you guys seem to miss this.


PS Do any of you guys know what a "stack-up" is ???

 

[roto]

The best solution that comes to mind has already been suggested. Check in the original and have the detailer work with a copy. As part of the approval process, the copy can be checked against the write-protected version with a compare analysis.

 

[jnoval]

I am engineer and CAD-manager. In my department we do not have any draftmans. All engineers do both model and drawing. This way the enginner learn how to make healty and good models. If the model is fully define with Tolerances, annotations etc. then it do not take a long time to make the drawing. If another person should make the drawing it must be needes to have all define before the draftmann can start on the drawing.


If we look at the total time that the company spend on making the models and the drawing, if would be less time if the engineer make both. Tha cost can perhaps be a different thing.


I have seen in other department, that if the engineer do not make the drawing he dont think/have the knowledgeon making the model in the correct "drawing" way. Ibasic a drawing should always just be show dimension and never create dimension. Many companyes make a mistake here.


If you use Intralink in the correct way it is a very strong tool to use when you are vorking many persone in the same project


I think the best soultion, when you have draftmann,must be to have the draftmann as a important part of designproject. Since the draftmann have a lot of training and expiriences in ProE he/she can make fast models and drawing.


I can not recommend to work on copys. If you have copys you will never know which one is the correct one and you will not have a update of all changes in all asm. You will just fill your server with crap.

 

[AHA-D]

As mentioned higher working on a copy is not recommended. And when it's been done the drafter should work on the original and the design model should be kept as reference. That's the easiest way to assure that sections, datums, ... that are needed in the drawing are kept with the correct model.


And as to tolerances. I can't imagine that you can do a well-founded design job if you don't know what tolerances are about. Fitting two long parts together with bolt holes on nominal values and tolerances surely doesn't work out in real life.


Alex

 

[lbear]

Always make sure that your model is correct and has plenty of detail, but as for the drawing one good way of making sure holes size and things don't get change is in the drawing mode don't use show and erase dimension if all posiable,have the drafters create their own dimensionthat way the drafters can make tolerance adustments and not change the design intent. Another thing is Communication between Engineer & Drafters


Lucas

 

[sbellido]

dear friends of the first world:


I

 

[dougr]

So who does the stack-ups ????


Do any of you know what a stack-up is ???
Edited by: dougr

 

[dougr]

I am engineer and CAD-manager. In my department we do not have any draftmans. All engineers do both model and drawing. This way the enginner learn how to make healty and good models. If the model is fully define with Tolerances, annotations etc. then it do not take a long time to make the drawing. If another person should make the drawing it must be needes to have all define before the draftmann can start on the drawing.

Depends on the complexity of the product, I have some parts that require 20 sheet casting drawings. Would detailing this be a good use of my time ??


Your product must be very simple...
Edited by: dougr