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the worst model I've seen...


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Nondisclosure agreements prevent me from posting the actual model, but I've created a model using the originator's design technique. Datums on datums, tiny edges, complex sketches, ...unbelieveable.

Worst yet, it was from a ID consultant whiz who supposedly knew his stuff If this is indicative of what you get for $50/hr, no wonder design is going offshore

I kid you not, this is how the model started out

... Apparently the attach feature is down, I will post as soon as its back up
Worst yet, it was from a ID consultant whiz who supposedly knew his stuff If this is indicative of what you get for $50/hr, no wonder design is going offshore

Careful about makeing ASSumptions about a specific profession, there are just as many engineering #$%*-ups that cost peoples lives.

I understand what you are complaining about. I am sure that there are people in both professions that should not be there. Just because you know of one bad apple don't lump all ID people together.

Both professions need each other and help each other become better. Was this Wiz an Pro/E expert ? If not maybe he dose not have a good understanding of how the software works, if so maybe you could help him get a better understanding of the software so that your job will be better/easer.

Don't forget that the original sketch for the Audi TT was on a bar napkin!
My own personnel experience is that a contracted outside job is never as good as an in house design. It appears the contractors principal mode of operation is get the job done quick, collect the cash and move on.

We have had to occasionally outsource some of our smaller jobs during heavy workload period's. Every time we get the job back the project engineer signs of the drawings because it looks good on paper and the tool maker has all the documentation he need to start the job.

The problem is I'm the one who's left to try and get the new project back into our intralink database, resolve all the part-naming conflicts and general add in and update our own internal PDM related parameters (very messy).

It's also my experience that most outside contractors either know very little about family tables or just flatly refuse to use them. Family tables are the best way to handle similar parts and an excellent way to manage a separate Casting / machining scenario. (The machinig is an instance of the casting with the machined features grouped and suppressed for the generic, then resumed for the machining). Our own designers know what is required of our CAD models and know how we can set them up for quick changes to our designs.

It seem that once the contractor has handed over his work, collected his pay and moved on to the next job he won't be around when the excrement and other nasty stuff hits the fan.

PS: the best one I've seen (more than once) is when we get the models back all the part files are
I did not mean for this to be a rant against against the ID profession. Whoever (engineer or ID or draftsperson) would submit this model is in need of some training

Skuld - do you send start parts and a copy of your company modeling practices along with your RFQ's to consultants?

btw - here's the model
Interesting question

I cant say how will someone grade my work, but every one of us have their own way of work. If I don
Oouch! Think of having to make a drawing.

This reminds me of an earlier topic, whether the model is important or not.
Holy Moly, I have not played with surfacing much at all... But I counted 53 features in the model tree for just 1 of the mounting legs on that monitor part. Whats with all the surface extensions?
I think the important information here is the fifty dollar and hour comment. Think of how much quicker these parts could of went. He/she was getting paid by the hour to come up with an end result. If it takes him 40 hours to do this one part then he just makes that much more money to do the same thing that could of taken him under an hour. Comonly called milking the clock.

As this is my particular area of expertise, I would like to give comments from the perspective of the consultant. The first thing that I should mention is that the files are a mess, no question, but to lump all consultants together because of a certain experience is wrong and is definately counter productive. Consultants exist for allot of very good reasons but mainly because corporations need an option for overflow and heavy work periods. This is why you see more one guy shops popping up all the time. We have tried freelancers, contractors and a number of other avenues to find the right people to fit within our team here at C2R but it is a real challenge to find a person with drive and a broad background in design with multiple processes and my search continues.

Think about it like this. All of us are contractors (an internal consultant more or less), freelancers or full time dedicated personnel to a company. The difference between a contractor and a consultant is that a good consultant requires little or no management from the client company in order to get the job done correctly and if chosen correctly, the consultant will have a wealth of experience to share relating to design as well as being fluent with the clients tools (CAD, CAID) for product development. It appears that the chosen resource was not the right choice in this instance. A contractor, even if self managed internally, is there because the company wants ultimate control of this resource and is usually based upon the complexity and security of the program to be worked on. By the way, an average contract resource through a placement firm will still cost at least $50/hr so there may be real benefits on a particular project to go with a firm versus an individual/s.

If you need to outsource work for any reason, it is not a good idea to just pick anyone. You need to do your homework and check on referrals just like if you were hiring a new employee or qualifying a vendor for prototyping, tooling, manufacturing, etc.... The KEY here is that once you find a consultant who fits well with your company, whether that be an individual or a design firm and you can build a trusting relationship whereas you can provide overflow and other work without worrying about being gouged or bogged down with project managment, then you have made it over the hump and the ride will be much easier. Those who frequently switch practices will have the most grief as you need to find a good resource and then work with them.

Keep in mind that many ID (not all) resources are not taught Pro-E in school and are generally self taught once they enter the industry. Industrial Design schools teach programs like Alias, Rhino, Maya and others which are primarily surfacing programs. That is why I find many of them who build models in Pro-e with so many features simply because that is what they know. I personally find a mixture of surfacing and solids to be the best approach to most modeling challenges especially because our models have to be inherited by our clients and as things change (which they always will), someone will have to modify that model down the road and if there is not much thought given to the downstream applications of your models then one would be short changing the client company and causing undo grief. These are my thoughts and I look forward to feedback. As a final note, talented Industrial Designers are a great asset to any development team since their skills in graphical/technical display can easily define products earlier and can save both time and $$$ in your process.

Respectfully Submitted

Bruce Nemec - Principal

Concepts 2 Reality

[email protected]

I actually didn't think the model was all that bad. The original sketch isn't very complex and starting with a washer and adding the cut features would create the same sketch geometry just spread out over multiple features. I'd prefer it the way it is, all as one revolved protrusion.

As far as the rest I think it's just because Pro/E is dreadful about patterning in general and really sucks when it comes to rotational patterns. It could be cleaned up but why? Bury the datums you don't want on a layer and be done with it. If this is the worst model you have to deal with then consider yourself lucky.
It could be cleaned up but why?

Analysis, for one. Trying to get a model like this in a useable form adds unnecessary time. The client get screwed twice, once for un-ethical milking the clock, once for fixing the original screw ups.
I love the models that you do a model player on and you see cuts put in the model then a protrusion put over the cut because they couldn't delete the cut.
>really sucks when it comes to rotational patterns.


>Not when you've mastered make-datum.

Yeah, make-datum would have been something I would have liked to have seen rather than the multiple curves and regular datums but remember the powers to be at PTC have decided hidden datums are bad. And perhaps when you're doing work that someone else will inherit it makes sense to show your work.

Rotational patterns still suck though because all you should have to do is pick a feature, pick an axis of rotation and type in a value. Dirt simple and they way everyone else in the world does it. And the fact that you can't rotate through 360 degrees with a single pattern really sucks! (is that fixed in WF?)

Here's one for ya. In the example part if you pick the first tab and the 10 degree dimension for a rotational pattern the part fails to regen. Same thing with the second tab and it works. Not a very useful pattern but it's still strange that identical geometry yields different results. Just one of the little quirks that makes Pro/E more difficult than it need be.

Wow, I always knew that there was lines between engineers and ID but never new how much a difference it makes.

I decided to do a university course in product design and engineering using Pro/E and it looks like when I finish people like me are going to be sort after......hopefully!!!!

In the way of $50 p/hr, I'm tempted to move out of England to the US when I finish my degree and join the good weather and cheaper living.
The more experience you get with the 3 basic modules of Proe (modeling, assy & drawing) the more you find that Proe is a chess game; moves made now can adversely affect moves made later.

Even though there are various ways to create specific geometry the best way is driven by other factors:

Is this a one-off? One way to keep features to a minimum in a one-off part is to model it, export it to a step file or similar and import it back in. This works well with non-family table commercial parts.

Can certain features possibly be either deleted before the design is finished or on a subsequent design? ie.

Making counterbores as a sketch instead of a concentric hole has often cost extra work on the model and subsequent drawings.

How will the part be assembled? ie: bolts assembled to part or all of a bolt pattern. A guard support may have symmetrical holes (calling for a single pattern) but 2 seperate parts bolt to it.

50% of Proe is Why you do something a specific way.

( Personally I can justify every feature on every part I create, but then I've been doing this for about 10 hous a day since Rel13.)

Unfortunately inexperienced users become a nightmare for those of us who have to clean up after them. In addition, companies erroneously misdiagnose the problem and invent more BS rules that further complicate the problem.

FInally, regarding the monetary issue, if the outside contractors were pros $50 would be cheap.
To Tha Man Uni Phil

Are you at DeMonfort, Brunel, Boltonetc I was @ uni in the UK doing BscIndustrial Design (Engineering) and yes ID coupled with Engineering is invaluable for job flex if nothing else I also am now in the US better weather, cheaper living ooh yes petrol is $1.50 per GALLON mate not $7 ( 4GBP). ouch good luck man stick at it 50 dollars an hour is nothimg though when it is not reg work and no benefits there is no NHS here and prescription drugs here are pricey just ask tha Canadians!