Continue to Site

Welcome to MCAD Central

Join our MCAD Central community forums, the largest resource for MCAD (Mechanical Computer-Aided Design) professionals, including files, forums, jobs, articles, calendar, and more.

Register Log in

Outsourcing overseas

Status
Not open for further replies.
I've recently been exposed to the practice of some companies outsourcing drafting work overseas - India in particular.



Maybe it's time to become more guarded in the information exchanged on this site - jobs are at stake...



I thought the whole message implied that you should be more guarded when replying to Indian members. If I misread this, I apologise, but as I had already expressed concern in my first post, perhaps you should have corrected me then.



Fred:



Glad you mentioned the religion thing, and not me! I didn't want to open that particular can of worms! :0)



Lesley
 
In all honesty, I don't think I've seen that much proprietary information disclosed on this site. What I have seen is a hell of a lot of great tips, procedures, and work-arounds, etc., but not necessarily stuff that would give one company (or nation) a competitive advantage over another. To withhold information seems to work directly against the purpose of this forum in the first place. I'm a Pro/Engineer instructor, and I still post here when I can, despite that *theoretically* customers aren't going to buy the cow when they can get the milk for free. Bottom line, I think we're taking a serious real-world issue with global consequences, and applying it to an inappropriate venue.



Dave Martin

Torgon Industries
 
except from GB, but that not counts. They are always acting like strangers in Europe.



Must have missed something, since when did Serbia become a part of Europe ??
 
Is Mexico in America - continent? Try to look in Maps how big is Europe. Maybe Serbia is not in EU (UNION) but surly is in central Europe - Balkan. Next to Italia if you don
 
This seemed a relative caveat for this conversation:





The Great Awakening About China





American businessmen and farmers are finally waking up to how they were sold a bill of goods by those who promised that China would be a profitable billion-mouth market if we just gave that developing country Most Favored Nation trade privileges and assisted its admission into the World Trade Organization (WTO). Like Claude Rains in Casablanca, the Bush Administration is shocked, shocked to discover that Communists don't play by the rules or keep their promises.



Chinese behavior is so blatant that U.S. Secretary of Commerce Donald Evans just went to Beijing for a week's visit to complain about China's trade policies in undiplomatically blunt terms. He chided the Chinese for failing to live up to their market-opening commitments made in December 2001 when China joined the WTO.



Time is running out, Evans said. We need to see results. . . .

We have been patient, but our patience is wearing thin. Evans even warned that China's exports might be threatened by hardening protectionist sentiment in the United States.



In September, the Bush Administration announced the creation of a new Unfair Trade Practices Team in the Commerce Department to address

trade barriers that are costing American jobs. The United States has lost 2.6 million manufacturing jobs since George W. Bush became President.



American manufacturers are complaining that China keeps its exports to the United States low-priced, and its imports from the U.S. high-priced, by artificially undervaluing Chinese currency up to 40 percent. China's excuse for this currency manipulation is that its banks have too many bad loans to allow money to move freely.



Evans' rhetoric about China's refusal to open its markets had been accelerating even before his trip to China. He told the Economic Club of Detroit in September, That's not a pretty picture.



In particular, Bush officials are demanding that China clamp down on counterfeiting and piracy of American films, software and other U.S. products. The Bush Administration is pressing for greater access to Chinese markets for U.S. companies and an end to subsidies for unprofitable state-owned companies.



Trying to criticize China's uncooperative behavior while keeping faith with free-trade dogma, Evans said, American manufacturers can compete against any country's white collars and blue collars but we will not submit to competing against another country's choke collars.



Evans admitted to the Detroit Club that U.S. manufacturers are complaining about rampant piracy of intellectual property, forced transfer of technology from firms launching joint ventures in China, trade barriers and capital markets that are largely insulated from free-market pressures.



As an example, Evans told how the Chinese steal Wrigley's copyrights. China sells pirated chewing gum, copies the design of the Wrigley distribution trucks and drives them over the very same routes.



Some of China's behavior is much more dangerous than refusing to buy our chewing gum. The Commerce Department says that Chinese companies refuse to cooperate in allowing checks on whether American dual-use goods sold to Beijing are diverted to military purposes.



Under Secretary Kenneth R. Juster said that we conduct such end- use verification visits without any difficulties in over 85 countries, but China restricts our ability to carry out this routine activity. He said that exports to China of licensed goods that have military applications have increased sharply.



Last year, China bought $2.8 billion worth of goods that have both civilian and military applications. That's up from $515 million in 2001.



It's no secret that China wants America's sensitive defense technology, cutting-edge computer software, and scientific research of all kinds. The FBI reported in August that China has more than 3,000 front companies in the United States whose real purpose is to use thousands of Chinese business and student visitors to carry out espionage tasks for the Chinese government.



The FBI ranks Communist China as the greatest espionage threat to the United States over the next 10 to 15 years. Director Robert Mueller told Congress that this situation can greatly undermine U.S. national security and U.S. military and economic advantage.



China is saying that it plans to buy more goods from the United States. But don't look for Wal-Mart to start selling made-in-America goods in China.



When Evans was in Beijing this month, China staged a ceremonial signing of contracts to buy $100 Million worth of U.S. rail equipment.

That's just 1/10th of one percent of our trade deficit with China now running at $120 Billion.



Most of that deficit is the result of the movement of U.S. manufacturing plants and jobs to China. Labor costs are so much cheaper when U.S. businesses can hire slave labor managed by Communist bosses.



I wonder if the 2.6 million Americans who lost their jobs think that the global economy is worth the price.



Phyllis Schlafly column 11-19-2003



Read this column online: http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2003/nov03/03-11-19.shtml
 
I think Phyllis Schlafly is right! American AND European companies should use extreme caution when sending sensitive information to Chinese companies (a.k.a. Chinese govt).
 
Should we stop freely disseminating information on this site? If the goal is the short term preservation of manufacturing jobs the the answer is yes but not for the reason you might think. The big ruse is that manufacturing is disappearing in the US. That's patently false. The USA is producing more now than it ever has in it's history. The main reason there are fewer jobs is because the factories are so much more efficient. What' s more, if the US is to increase the amount of goods manufactured domesticly then in must continue to increase effeciency. The key is that the amount of labor involved in building a car must become less than the cost of transporting that car half way around the globe. This in fact is exactly what is happening as companies like Honda, Mazda, BMW, etc. are all increasing production in the US.



-Bernie-
 
If manufacturing levels are still the same as they were, say 15 years ago, then why is it that you can't find anything in Walmart (or anyhwhere else) that says Made in USA. Even if it were made in the U.S. by robots it would still say Made in USA. I think to say manufacturing is no t disappearing in the the US is logically nad obviously absurd. If it is patently true, where is the evidence?
 
This in fact is exactly what is happening as companies like Honda, Mazda, BMW, etc. are all increasing production in the US.



They may be assembling cars here but that doesn't mean the components are manufactured, tooled, or designed in the US. The foreign car companies are most likely assembling cars here to avoid import tarriffs on finished goods.
 
======

If manufacturing levels are still the same as they were, say 15 years ago, then why is it that you can't find anything in Walmart

=======



It's because the only Boeing aircraft you find at Walmart are toy models. Convert the dollar value of a 747 into teddy bears. There are fewer jobs in manufacturing but far more is being made in terms of value than ever before.



Unlike say Pakistan which artificially creates jobs building automobiles in country the US market is wide open. It's true that many labor intensive components are built in Mexico. Originally Japanese companies imported the drive train but that was driven mostly out concern for the quality of parts built in America. Subsidising an industry only dooms it in the end. That's what happened to the US steel industry. As far as design, by and large the US market is very different than say Europe and all of the companies maintain a strong design presence in the US. Ford tried the World Car approach a decade ago and it failed misserably. I'll bet pick-up trucks with ten cylinder engines aren't a big seller in the UK :+)



-Bernie-
 
If I buy things that I need from a generic store, it is because I've determined that the quality I get for that price is adequate for my needs. If I need better quality I shop at a brand name store. It is as simple as that to me.



If the quality of software (or other products) made in places where we have a gripe about, it is because managers (decision makers/reponsibility bearers) have determined that it meets the quality requirements that customers would pay for. If it does not meet these, they don't buy it. As simple as that.



If I can heap genuine acolades on the free enterprise and healthy competition spirit in the country where I live, which I know helps increase (or at best maintains) quality for customers while reducing cost to them, why then do I begrudge if it is done likewise elsewhere, being that like me, they too are human beings?



If someone else is providing cheap labor while yet providing at least as good quality as I, could it not be that it is actually I who am providing pork barrel labor? Why is it that I want the trickle down theory to apply to everyone else, but when it comes to me I want the downpour?



If someone there is using deceitful or abusive business methods in dealing with us, we should deal with them the same way we deal with persons using like methods here. But if they can provide stuff good enough relative to what I are willing to pay, while still living their lives as reasonably happy as possible, at N units of currency there, couldn't I do the same at even a mere (say) 2N units the equivalent of that currency here? If they can and we can't, what is wrong that we might need to address here?



These are some of the things I am trying to order my life by as I struggle to face up to understand what the designer of the Earth means when He declared, For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. If one could express these difficulties on a forum such as this and what that implies, and one can read them on a forum such as this, we, by default, are already living in the LHS of the equation. How then may I begin with the unavoidable RHS?
 
Thank God we can have an open forum like this, because you try this in China and we would all be in jail.



I'll add one thing to the fire if I may, there hasn't been much talk about, in this forum, union wages being some of the factor for driving some of the manufacturing jobs out of the US. When you have to pay someone $20/hour and up to pick up a screwdriver, the cost of your product will be higher. I guess I should through in all the litigation insurance companies have to pay for. How much does a ladder cost now that the company can and does get sued because somebody fell off at the job site or even at home?



What a great subject to discuss.



Steve C
 
What a great topic. This is the most interesting topic in the forums so far!! Its covered many different areas, I'm not sure which to address first.



I'll start by saying I'm the cad admin here in a global company. I'm watching jobs going left and right to other countries. Engineers don't like to send work overseas, but they have no choice, management forces us. I left my last job before getting layed off. I saw the light at the end of the tunnel. We had 120 contractors working at that location. GE (oops did I give the company name?) made the mandate that all contract labor will be outsourced to another country. Boom, 120 Pro-E jobs gone. Thankfully I got another job before getting the ax. I know there are many of you that could easily top those numbers in your own situation. In my current company, Purchasing is actively searching for cheaper suppliers in MX, Corporate IT looking for resources in India, Human resources is looking for temporary workers instead of paying benefits. Where does it end? How long will it take them to outsource me? How long will it take for corporate america to figure out they are laying off their major customer base?



It really does come down to greed. Rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. This is seen from the overwhelming CEO wages and bonuses. They get bonuses for cutting people's livelihood. Would I lay off people if I was a CEO and got a $50,000 bonus for cutting overhead? Hmm, good question. We are greedy by birth.



I could go on for hours about this. I'll leave it for now.



I wonder if they are hiring any more welders at the radiator plant (http://www.theonion.com/3945/news3.html) ?
 
Here is another great article from the onion related to this topic.



http://www.theonion.com/3944/top_story.html





My 2 cents:



The shift in the american manufacturing base has many people to blame. A few that come to mind are the government, greedy executives, lawyers, and consumers buying cheap goods.



As a regular joe in america the best things we can do are: elect officials that help the situation and let those representatives know your opinions these important issues, don't award rediculious amounts if your on a jury because those costs just get passed on to consumers, buy american products as much as possible, and for us engineers, keep coming up with inovative designs that make american products better than the cheap chinese products.
 
I have to add a few words here, because the topic is so hot and affects our lives everywhere, North America, Europe, Asia. We, or our governments, cannot stop the trend of economy globalization (it can be slowed, though), so we have to look in our courts and see what can be done to adapt ourselves to new market conditions. As swcalvert mentioned, a main obstacle is in peoples mind (union wages): most of the unionized laborers act in disregard with their own interest- live the moment. But meanwhile the large manufacturing companies (look at the big three) are both, highly automating their factories to eliminate their high liability workers and/or move the production overseas (Mexico).

Another reason: American-type management: what's on the bottom line counts, doesn't matter how you add it there (so they can get their bonuses). They usually don't have a strategy, don't invest for the future.

If you read the newspaper, lots of CEOs etc. are complaining about the lack of action from their goverment(s) to protect their standard of living by imposing tariffs. Is not their fault that the company is in red and it laid off people, is somebody else's fault. Always.

The global situation is affecting us and is going to affect us even more, but in the end there is going to be an equilibrium. China and India can't afford to import too much from western world at the moment, but their people's income raises every year. We might have to lose some of our benefits, but this is life, isn't it?

China is to be watched in the near future. They are intelligently moving towards an open market without destroying their existing economy, as most of formerly communist countries did.

There is a highly acclaimed and criticized book: Who Moved My Cheese? and the idea is that you got to look for some other cheese before somebody moves yours.
 
Well here's another side. We are up to our a-- in alligators trying to build product (in USA) to deliver product our competitor's can't deliver.



the reason? it seems management at our competitors wanted to save money and moved their manufacturing offshore. they can't get workers to stay on the job (in fact the new workers show up on the first day, go through training in the morning, eat the free lunch and leave!)



In fact , we are most successful selling into the very country our competitors move their manufacturing to!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Sponsor

Articles From 3DCAD World

Back
Top