Layers in Pro-E Are a Pain

[verge]

Imagine yourself importing a very large assembly from a supplier into another assembly. You spend a day or so stripping data out of the thing, since it's been created by dozens of engineers over the course of months and months. You realize that your layer tree is now totally mangled by the new data. You begin trying to place stray axes onto layers.


Good luck! Maybe you could take a friggin' class on how to do it. In UG, you would simply pick the axis and use the MOVE TO LAYER FUNCTION, but not in Pro-E! I've spent an entire afternoon attempting to move a half-dozen axes onto some kind of layer or another. This is ridiculous, totally ridiculous!


No wonder people don't bother with layers much in Pro-E. It's horrifying just trying to perform the simplest function with them. Why even bother having layers when it's this much of a pain? I'm a fan of layers, too, that's the sick part of it.


You'll notice I've never started a rant until now. There you have it...

 

[wsylvester]

verge...rules won't work?

 

[sanjeevkar1]

why don't you use search tool to find and select the axis or any other feature?

 

[dgs]

I feel your pain, but there is hope. See if you can get access to Glenn Beer's presentation on layers from the PTC|User Conference. He should be reachable on the PTC|User exploder. It was truly eye opening.


He cleaned up a layer mess in a large assy (3-4 pages oflayers in dozens of components and sub-assys and lots and lots of planes, CYS, etc not on layers) in about 30 seconds. He had mapkeys to help him, but even without that I bet you could do it in well under an hour using his techniques.


There were 2 keys:


1 - Using the search too to find the items and then create rule driven layers in the top level assy.


2 - Using the 'Extend Rules' command (in the layer tree, under the 'layers' drop-down) to push those rule driven layers down to each and every sub-assy and component.


He also mentioned that he never uses the 'show' command for layers, only the 'hide' and 'isolate' commands.


I haven't had the opportunity to play with this myself yet, but I plan to.

 

[verge]

I will look into all of this stuff today. Tried the rules thing, but don't have a good handle on it yet. I will definitely look at the Glenn Beer presentation, although an actual beer might be better.


I'm a bit stressed at the mess this thing is in. Couple that with my general ignorance of layer use and you wind up with a new rant

.


Hey, this wasn't much of a rant. I guess I'm not as well-adjusted as the rest of you.


Thanks again. I'll keep you "posted".

 

[mjcole_ptc]

Verge,

You can use Cut Paste commands in the feature tree to accomplish what you want in regard to moving to layer. You can also use rules to add all items from imported geometry. Let's say you have
IMP_AXES
IMP_DATUMS
IMP_CSYS

You could have a layer IMP__ALL with a rule that would add items belonging to a layer named IMP_* or name each layer you want included in your rules.

I can't for the life of me or anyone else figure out why they removed isolate from the layers tool and into Visibilities? I'm waiting for Pro/E's selection tools to reach the power of UG's Select by Name. Color and what ever other criteria was always an easy task.

Michael

 

[kwillo]

<DIV>Just to add to the general theme of ranting and raving about layers...</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>In Pro/ENGINEER 2001 it was possible to assignall similar items to the layer by selecting one from the model tree usingthe All Instances option. In WF2 it's not so easy. Just look at the work I got backfrom the helpdesk:</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>


DETAILED DESCRIPTION:
<DIV>


It was possible in past revisions to select ALL INSTANCES in an assembly to place ALL LIKE components on a single LAYER. This simple function has been removed and now the alternative method is very long, slow and inefficient.


In 2001 (and prior) the steps would be as follows:


Open layers function, select a layer, select add item, component, All Instances (or Individual), pick or query select, select item, done select, done/return


Now in Wildfire the steps are as follows:


Open Layers function, select a layer, right click, select LAYER PROPERTIES, in the Layer Properties box, select the RULES tab, select OPTIONS pull down, select INDEPENDENT, Go to RULES box, Select EDIT RULES, go to LOOK FOR pull down and select COMPONENT, select LOOK IN pull down and select proper ASSY, Select ATTRIBUTES Tab, under RULE select NAME, under CRITERIA go to comparison pull down and select IS EQUAL TO, go to VALUE pull down list and select applicable COMPONENT form list, go to QUERY BUILDER and select ADD NEW box (the component you selected should now be listed), Select OK (at bottom). Now you are back in LAYER PROPERTIES main box, select OPTION button and select all three selections (associative, Rules Enabled, Independent), then select OK.


Unfortunately the only thing you can do regarding this, is to submit an enhancement request at <U title=blocked::https://www.ptc.com/app/cs/misc/PTC_Enhancement_Process.jsp> [url]https://www.ptc.com/appserver/cs/misc/PTC_Enhancement_Proces s.jsp[/u][/url]. Many customers complain about this drawback and hence many enhancement requests were filled. By joining them, hopefully PTC will take this request into consideration and improvements could be made in a future release.


I suggest we take their advice and log an enhancement request for a future release. A release which comes sooner rather than later with a bit of luck. Progress, eh?!</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>

 

[verge]

Does anyone know if there's access somewhere to the Glenn Beer presentation Doug Schaefer mentioned? I think it's just what I need. I've hardly had time to look at thisissue - swamped with other work all of a sudden.


I'll try to look into the cut and paste commands, too. But, as usual, I'm looking for aquick fix!

 

[dgs]

Go to the PTC|User web site (ptcuser.org) and get on the forums. Once you're a registered member, you can either post a message for him or search the members list for his info.


The presentation was pretty heavily demo in Pro|E, so it may not be as helpful all by itself. Contacting him directly may be better.

 

[wsylvester]

is there a way to place only the "n th" item of a group that has been patterned on a layer

 

[verge]

I hate to interrupt the overwhelming response to Bill's question (

), but I was able to contact Glenn Beer, and he gave me some very useful information.In order to avoid him being flooded with requests, I am posting the information he gave me here. Enjoy.
<BLOCKQUOTE =gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>


Using find to create layers.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>This is best done at the top model of and assembly you need to clean up.

<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px">Use the find dialog and create a search that finds all the items that you would have placed on a layer. That might be all features that are of the type datum plane. When your search terms work as desired, go to the pull down labeled "Options" and choose "Save Query" (Who would ever know that this creates a layer). When the Save Rules dialog opens, enter the name of the layer you want created. DO NOT check the Propagate Layer box. Hit OK. Now go to the layer and examine it's properties and options. They will be set to best effect.
</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE =gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>


Using the extend function to create layers, with rules, recursively. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>This only works from the assembly level.

<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px">In the layer tree, highlight the layer just created. (There is no point is doing this if the layer has no rules.) At the top of the layer tree there is a dropdown called "LAYERS" Select it and choose "EXTEND LAYERS". The highlighted layer will be created in all submodels of the product structure, except for those model that have a layer by that name. They are skipped. You can select more than one layer at a time.

From your email it sounds like you already have a well regulated top assembly with the rule driven layers you want. You could simply open the offending subassy, delete all the layers, go back to your top level assembly, set the layer tree to show only the top level layers, select them, and extend them.
</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE =gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>


Searching for items in the layer tree. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>In the layer tree, select the SHOW drop down and select FIND then SEARCH. This can be useful for finding layers by name, which is useful when creating mapkeys that need to select a specific layer instead of the layer and nodeX. I highly recommend exploration and testing, it's worth a few lunch hours. </DIV>




<BLOCKQUOTE =gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>


Using the selector to manipulate the layer tree. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>The selector. It's that arrow to the left of the SHOW drop button. Click on the arrow and then select any part or subassy in your assembly. The layer tree will focus on that part showing only the part layers. You can now easily change the layer status's for only that part. This also allows you to set the layer status for that part you are trying to assemble (the one that was correctly saved with all it's layers blanked). Chose the chooser pick on the model being assembled and set its layers as needed.
</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE =gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>


How to distinguish between entities and features. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>I think I was clear that entities are the geometric items that make up features. What many don't realize is that when trying to select items to be put on layers, query select will allow you to pick an entity instead of the feature.


<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px">Try this. In a new part that has only the default datums and no layers.
Create a layer called FEATURE.
Manually add a datum plane by selecting it in the model tree.
Create a second layer called ENTITY.
Add the same datum plane to it EXCEPT don't pick it from the model tree. In the lower left corner change the selection filter from SMART to GEOMETRY, then graphically select the same datum plane. Close the layer creation dialog.

Now. in the model tree, expand both layers to show their contents.
Note the icons are different for features and entities. Features typically have the same icon shown in the model tree. Entities have a different icon, the entities that make up datum features typically have a point/axis/plane like icon.

Now, look at the text. There is a clear difference between the feature and the entity. Entities always have a segmented notation (There is a colon in the text), features never have that. The segmented notation is the most reliable way to tell if the layer item is a feature or entity.

I recommend putting features on layers instead of entities. There are good reasons to put entities on layers and I'm sure you will recognize the need when it occasions.
</DIV>
It's most important to be able to make the distinction between features and entities, because layer status combined with Proe's basic rules about how invisibility is applied, has been a major cause of confusion for a long time.</DIV>

 

[dgs]

Glad you found him. His presentation was eye opening.


One other thing he mentioned was the '#1 rule of invisibility' which was:
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">


Once an item is rendered invisible; every sub item, in that branch of the model, is rendered invisible. </BLOCKQUOTE>
This is important to keep in mind with the distinction between features and feature entities, as mentioned. If you have 2 layers, one for curve features and one containing a few curve entities, hiding the curve features layer will make all the curve entities hidden as well, regardless of the display status of the curve entities layer.

 

[verge]

That went over my head, while I was in over my head. Then I was run over by my train of thought.

Just a little silliness, I did actually catch that. Thanks, Doug.


Just how many rules of invisibility are there? Isn't there some kind of magic ring you can use for that?


I'm in a weird mood today...must be the middle of the week.

 

[dgs]

No, he only had 1 rule, but I can think of some more.
<UL>
<LI>An item will be visible by default.</LI>
<LI>Setting an item hidden (either directly or by layer) overrides the visible status</LI>
<LI>Setting an item 'isolated' by layer will override the hidden status.</LI>[/list]


So, isolate is more powerful than hidden which is more powerful than visible. Combine that with the visibility rule and you have a good idea on how layers work.


Think about the visibility rule like this. If I put a part within an assembly on an assembly layer and hide the layer, the part and all it's features and geometry are hidden. If Ihave the planes in that part on a part layer, nothing I do to that part layer - isolate or unhide - can make the planes visible because the whole part is hidden.


The same is true at the feature level. If I place an entire curve feature on a layer and hide the layer, it will be hidden. If I place one line or segment of that curve on a different layer, nothing I do to that layer - unhide or isolate - can make that segment visible because the whole curve feature is hidden.


Does that help?

 

[verge]

Yes, it does. I did check out the ppt presentation you sent me, too.


I think I have a good handle on the overall picture. Now it's just a question of weeding through a ton of stuff and cleaning it up. Like yourself, I keep being sidetracked and haven't been able to even spend a few hours straight to concentrate on it. Looks like I'll have to install Pro-E at home soon.


On second thought, no, I won't. I have better things to do at home : ).

 

[gkbeer]

Hi All.

Verge alerted me that this topic was active here. I hadn't know there was a large active group of Pro/e users on this forum.

The only thing I regret about the Mastering Layers presentation during Pro/User, was that I couldn't pare it down enough to leave time for Q&A. Also PowerPoint slides if done properly, make poor reference material. To address that I'm going to start a Mastering Layers Q&A thread in the Modeling forum.

After reading this thread I can see that my presentation has had a positive impact.

 

[verge]

Wow, I just erased my whole post by mistake! So excited about having control of layers I lost control of my thread!


I'm only halfway through Glenn's email, and I have control over this amazing mess of an assembly. It's literally hard to believe.


To paraphrase prohammy from an earlier thread, "I can feel the power coursing through my veins!"


I would recommend to anyone concerned with use of layers to read through this and get to know the techniques. I'll be spending a few lunch hours perfecting this stuff. Wow, what a feeling of confidence and control. Thanks to everyone. Thanks Doug for turning me on to Glenn's presentation, and thanks Glenn for spending some time on your off day to put this together for all of us.

 

[slashct]

I made some serious mapkeys to delete all layers and than re-assign items to layers, it was some work, but it is a life saver, as in 2001 it was much easier to do back than, it does take mastering the Search tool and if you don't use it much you lose all of the options just like the make layer from the search that was mentioned.


What I did figure out after this exercise is that you can easily configure and run Modelcheck in batch mode to delete the extra layers and than add missing layers and assign items. It works on almost everything except for axis on holes if I remember correctly, and this can be fixed with a mapkey.

 

[satish153]

Hi,


Yes we can select the N th feature of the pattern in saperate layers


Only thing is that you will have to write the feature ID


View attachment 3991

 

[wsylvester]

Satish,


Haven't tried that method, not sure if it will catch all the patterned ones.


But Glenn suggested adding a feature parameter to the one that I want and then using a expression rule.... it works great and if I change the pattern value it updates.